'I'm an atheist too'

The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God'. (Psalm 53:1)

The forthcoming release of the movie The Golden Compass got me thinking about this verse and a conversation I had with an atheist many years ago. The movie is based on the book of the same name (in the UK it's called Northern Lights). It's written by the avowed anti Christian and fundamentalist atheist Philip Pullman, and is the first book in his trilogy His Dark Materials. The movie has been toned down so as not to offend certain religious groups in the US. Pullman is no passive unbeliever; he is on record as stating that one of his aims in writing is to 'kill God in the minds of children'. So much for free thought.

Anyway, to the point. I actually happened to be reading Psalm 53 yesterday, which opens with a comment about atheists. The Bible is quite dismissive of them; several times this phrase appears and it's quite curt: such people are fools. God doesn't seem to be setting out to win them over by proofs of his existence; he just says, 'They don't believe I'm here. How foolish'.

I've never tried to prove the existence of God to an atheist. I get on very well with most of the ones I have met over the years. But trying to prove the existence of God to a closed mind is not worth it. The most interesting conversation I had with an atheist was many years ago; he was my boss. I liked him very much and we often would sit and chat about many things. When it came to Christianity and the existence of God there was, naturally, a chasm between us. My boss had been raised in a strict Welsh religious home, which meant he spent a lot of his childhood and early teenage years in church. It would have been horrible.

One day as we were talking I felt prompted to ask him what seemed to be a strange question: 'Bill, what kind of a God don't you believe in?' He looked at me with a puzzled expression: 'What do you mean?', he replied. I said, 'Well, somewhere along the line you must have had some idea of what God was like and then decided you didn't believe in that God'. Bill said, 'That's right; I did'. I then asked him to describe to me the kind of God he didn't believe in. As he did I couldn't recognise the God of the Bible at all. The god Bill was describing was some harsh, vindictive, remote being who bore no resemblance to the living God. When he had finished I sat there for a moment and then said, 'Bill, I'm an atheist too'. His eyes almost popped out of his head! Before he could respond I explained. 'I don't believe in the god you've just described either. That god doesn't exist; he's a god you made up from what you were told when you were young and from the way your parents used God against you. Since I don't believe in that god you've just described I'm an atheist too!'

AW Tozer said, 'What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us'. We build our lives on our concept of God. That's why the most important question we face in life is: 'Who is God?' The vital thing is that we then get the right answer.

Comments

[Louise]

WOW, awesome post. Thank you.

=-)

[Joe Orland]

Rom 1:20 has always assured me that the atheist does indeed know that God is.
Thanks for the testimony, too. I believe that the Holy Spirit will remind us of this in just the right situations.

[Amy Heague]

What an awesome post! Thanks. Don't you just love Tozer!

[Pat McKinnon]

Fantastic, Roger! Well put. Oh to be a fly on the wall at that moment.

[Ian Whillans]

I'm with you Roger. If that's the kind of god people don't believe in, I'm an athiest too! How sad that people reject the one true God because of a false understanding of who He is.

You'd think that in a world where people insist on making their own minds up about things that they'd find out for themselves who He is rather than believing the rubbish that's fed to them by dead-religion and the secular media.

You don't find people saying, "I hate chips", "I don't believe in them" - just because someone told them that they taste bad, or that they don't exist! They do exist, you can get them everywhere - and trust me, they taste good!

[Akinola Akinyede]

Great post Roger. I do really feel sorry for Atheists and the likes of Philip Pullman.

In their bid to dismiss God, they are being entrenched in their folly. If only they knew.

[Paul]

As you decided to open the question of atheism I think it appropriate to reply to your comments.

In the first instance your "I don't believe in that god either" argument is a simple sophistry. After all, I don't believe in any gods and you believe in precisely one. So we share the fact that for any particular god - other than your own - neither of us believe in it. That advances us not a jot because I don't believe in *any* gods - and that includes yours too.

As to the Golden Compass it seems to be not much more than an atheistic counterpart to the C.S. Lewis Chronicles of Narnia. Both authors sought to put their arguments into a form suitable for children. I personally think that religious questions are best left to adults who can decide for themselves. Nonetheless, parents educate their children in accord with their own firmly held (sometimes lack of) beliefs. So, I find the His Dark Materials books no different in principle to a Sunday School or confirmation class.

I shall rely on your new-found commitment to free thought confident that this post will make the blog and not the bit bucket. Hope springs eternal.

Paul

[Jack]

"So much for free thought"?

Tell me, what exactly is so free about these same children being forced to attend Sunday school and being led by the hand into religious doctrine at such a young age?

As for what god you or anyone else chooses to believe in, that's one of the reason why I'm an atheist. The very concept of god is open to a very liberal interpretation. You see the positives, while those who have had enough misfortune and disappointment in their lives may see only the negative. Some who are religious are genuinely kind, tolerant people while others use it as a means to an awful end for those who don't agree with them. When god is "pick and choose", who's rght? I'm sure you would say that you are, just as any fringe fundamentalist would say that they are. The only thing all people who believe in a god have in common is absolutely no proof that there is or ever was a god. To me, the burden of proof isn't on you, it's on god. But even if you did prove he existed...

Where is god, and what has he been up to? Where was the christian god when David sent Uriah to die so he could have his wife? Where was he when his "son" made a bragging rights wager with "the devil" that cost Lot's family their lives? Did he take the day off during the Mai Lai massacre? It's just this man's opinion, but if that's god...no thanks! Why would I worship a deity who has less compassion than I do?

Of course, as you can tell by this post, I would love to believe in the god you do. I truly would. But unlike you, I can't ignore the harsh reality of life. I didn't come to be an atheist by a lack of scientific evidence that points to the existence of god (though there is none and never will be), I came to the conclusion that there is no god because I can't ignore the fact that a god who allows the horrors of this world to go on is no better than the average human being. You may be able to fantasize otherwise, but I've seen too much to do so myself.

[Kerri]

"So much for free thought"?

How is the indoctrination of millions of young minds, especially those too young to even attend school, with the belief that there is a being out there who truly cares for them so much that he sent his "son" to die for them free thought?

Religion does not encourage free though. It wants no questions. It demands complete and total devotion of faith.

"God doesn't seem to be setting out to win them over by proofs of his existence; he just says, 'They don't believe I'm here. How foolish'."

From my point of view, believing in the reality of life, the here and now, focusing on my family and my community and my world is ANYTHING but foolish. Believing there is something more and that we're only killing time before we rise up to be with this mythical being... to ME and to rational, open-minded thinkers all over the globe... THAT is foolish.

How can you be so self-absorbed as to believe that yours is the only god worth worshiping? I'm told daily be believers that it's too bad that Mormons and Catholics are going to hell for belonging to "cults." Why are their beliefs, different though they might be from yours, to be dismissed?

Try understanding that this a big, beautiful world filled with many many cultures and beliefs and that all of them are just as valid as yours. We are not so dissimilar, my religious friend. I just believe in one fewer gods than you do.

[Roger]

Thanks Kerri; always nice to hear from our atheist friends. I know any post which mentions the word 'atheist' will bring you guys out in force. Your evangelical zeal for your atheism is as keen as mine for my God. Of course, I totally disagree with your premises and conclusions; and life here on earth is never regarded as killing time. I am rather enjoying the journey: life is a lot of fun actually. For me, heaven is just the icing on a very good cake.

[Stephen]

If heaven is the icing on the cake, which heaven? The heaven of Islam, the heaven of Christianity, the heaven of Judaism? How, if I was ever to abandon reason and accept myth as reality, would I know which god to follow to which heaven? I absolutely do not understand why there are so many flavors of faith, even within the same over-arching beliefs, if there is only one god and one path to heaven. That is a lot of people going to hell no matter which faith is the right one

And what if it is a religion that we passed of as silly thousands of years ago? Crap.

[Roger]

Thanks Stephen: another warm and friendly visit from one of our atheist friends. I love the way you guys are so dismissive and insulting to others who do not share your non-faith. If you're happy in your philosophy then just leave us to be happy in ours.